In our discussion with Elizabeth Weinberg, a queer essayist and science communicator, we examine our relationship with the Earth through a queer, anti-racist, and feminist lens. Liz breaks down the ahistorical way environmentalism is often taught, which leads to the justification of oppressive systems like genocide and environmental racism. She argues for the necessity of recognizing the real history of humanity’s relationship with the Earth to meaningfully respond to the ecological crises we face. Our conversation then moves into the connections between social activism, queerness, and environmental justice. Liz discusses navigating the challenges and potential in climate communication and emphasizes the importance of striking a balance between acknowledging the severity of the situation and finding joy in stories that inspire us to contribute to making a livable world.
Info about her amazing book, Unsettling
X and Instagram @eaweinberg
(0:00:20) – Exploring Regenerative Education and Ecological Ethos
Elizabeth Weinberg discusses decolonizing our relationship to the earth, recognizing environmental racism, and understanding humanity’s history.
(0:08:21) – Social Activism and Queerness in Environmental Justice
We explore anti-racist, anti-colonial environmental activism, climate crisis, extractive systems, environmental justice, Canadian communities’ experiences, and queerness in sustainability.
(0:23:35) – Balance and Potential in Climate Communication
Finding balance between gravity of climate and joy, specialized approach to environmentalism, and how to contribute to a livable world.
Resources mentioned in this episode
Liz Weinberg, Unsettling: Surviving Extinction Together
Eve Tuck and K. Wayne Yang, Decolonization is Not a Metaphor
Joshua Whitehead, Making Love with the Land
José Esteban Muñoz, Cruising Utopia: the Then and There of Queer Futurity
0:00:20 – Anna
Welcome to Creative Praxis. I’m Anna Griffith, an assistant professor in the School of Creative Arts at the University of the Fraser Valley.
0:00:27 – Kyla
And I am Kyla Mitchell-Marquis, an undergraduate honor psychology student focusing on gender and sexuality at the University of the Fraser Valley and a research assistant for the podcast.
0:00:36 – Anna
To begin our conversation today, I would like to acknowledge that I’m speaking from the shared territory of the Squamish, Tsleil-Waututh and Musqueam peoples, and that our work on the podcast also takes place on the beautiful lands of the Stó:lo, Halq’eméylem-speaking peoples of the river, and as I look to the garden that I tend here and the magnificent diversity of life that exists within it, I’m reminded of the power of recognizing and celebrating difference while simultaneously understanding the ways that everything is interconnected. Regenerative education or regenerative approaches to learning and living also hold this complexity. Our guest today is not an educator per se, but I found her writing to share values and ideas with how we are imagining regeneration.
0:01:20 – Kyla
We are joined today by Elizabeth Weinberg–a queer essayist, science communicator, and nature nerd. She is the author of Unsettling: Surviving Extinction Together, which reimagines a relationship to Earth that is queer, anti-racist, feminist, and woven into every aspect of our lives. Liz has supported science communication efforts for scientific organizations, U.S. federal agencies, and nonprofits. She holds an MFA in creative writing from the University of Washington, and her writing has appeared in The Rumpus, The Toast, American Wild Magazine, SEVENSEAS magazine, and other publications. She lives and writes in Tovangar, also known as Los Angeles.
0:02:00 – Liz
Thank you so much for having me.
0:02:02 – Anna
So, to begin, I’d like to ask a little bit about your work and specifically your writing in Unsettling, where you discuss this ecological ethos that’s queer, anti-racist, feminist and really woven into every aspect of our lives. We find this really incredibly important and really responsive to multiple systems that have gotten us into the really urgent contemporary moment that we’re in. Can you tell us a little bit about the ecological ethos that you’re championing?
0:02:32 – Liz
Yeah. So the process of writing Unsettling was in some ways really my own process of educating, or rather re-educating, myself about the stories I was told about the environment and the ecology around me and where these stories come from and how those stories are often really completely false. Most of us, especially white Americans and I imagine in Canada as well, come to environmentalism with a pretty ahistorical lens. We’re taught at best a rather garden of Eden derived myth that humans are the root evil of ecological destruction. We had something perfect and then we ruined it by being humans. And we’re also taught that before white settlers showed up on this continent it was a vast untamed wilderness. And from those myths we get ideas like needing to save the environment from ourselves through national parks and other set aside pieces of land. You know, if we just don’t touch it, then it’ll somehow be pure and better. And at its extreme we get some pretty gnarly ideas like eco-fascism, which basically blame the climate crisis and environmental degradation on overpopulation, especially of non-white people.
But as it turns out, those myths they are totally untrue and ungrounded in the reality and the real history of humanity.
We have tons of examples of humans living in relationship with the environment, as part of it, not as in domination of it. Those examples are particularly rich in this continent, with its indigenous peoples, who continue to live in this way in many cases, and we’ve used these myths to justify the genocide of indigenous peoples because they weren’t using the land you know quote correctly or they were inhabiting spaces that we wanted to use one way or another. We use it to justify environmental racism and so on. And so the process of reading, researching and writing unsettling was with me, learning this actual history and the myth that I had been told. And so I’m calling for us, in unsettling, to recognize the actual history of our relationship to earth, particularly white people’s relationship to earth, and how it’s really steeped in this, these ethos of white supremacy and colonialism, because if we’re going to respond in any reasonable or meaningful or useful ways to these ecological crises we’re facing, we’re really going to need to radically reconfigure our relationship to earth and to each other.
0:04:53 – Anna
And you’re offering such a like a really potent example of the many peoples from across the world who do have this way of living in harmony, imbalance, in stewardship with land. And so one of the things that I hear in the call that you’re making which I love, timmy is partly, partly the process of decolonizing in a really deep way, like decolonizing a relationship to land, to seeing ourselves as interconnected, as well as decolonizing our relationships with one another.
0:05:27 – Liz
Yeah, and I am a little bit hesitant to put it that way because you know, per Tuck and Yang, for example, decolonization means land back and in rethinking my own story, I am not actually giving land back to the people to whom it belongs. So I’m like I’m a little hesitant to say that it is a full decolonizing, because I don’t think I’m the right person to say exactly what that looks like. But what it is, at least, is a recognition of how colonialism is deeply imbued in all of our structures right now and how and our ways of knowing, our ways of knowing, are steeped in colonialism. And if we don’t recognize that fact, we’re just, we’re doomed to continue on this path.
0:06:10 – Anna
And thank you for bringing up Tuck and Yang and their really seminal work on on what decolonization actually is. And I know in Canada there is a large land back movement but, as you said, like especially for people who don’t own land, like ours to give right, but I really think that this, this recognition of the ways that we are steeped and our perceptions are so skewed by colonization and the legacies that extend from it, is really, really important.
0:06:40 – Liz
Yeah, completely agree.
0:06:41 – Kyla
Absolutely. I think this leads in really well to the next question I was going to ask. You make a powerful statement in your book saying that if I care about social justice, I have no choice but to care about climate change, which evolved from a previous understanding where you felt that the nature you knew wasn’t political. Can you expand on this and explain why social activism and environmental activism are more interconnected than we realize?
0:07:04 – Liz
Yeah, so to contextualize that a little bit, I grew up on the east coast of the US, just outside of Washington DC. I grew up very much in the suburbs and did not think of the like my backyard as nature. It was my backyard, it was my part of the extension of my house and I would go hiking with my dad around the Potomac River. And then when I got older, as a teenager, I started to go backpacking in the American West and a little bit in beautiful British Columbia, and to me nature was this thing that I went away to. You know, it was outside of my, the rest of my life, where I was dealing with everything you deal with as a growing queer teenager and growing awareness of what it meant to be political or live in a world that is political. You know, there was all the political stuff I was doing in high school and college and then there were the places, the woods, you know, the mountains, the places that I went, and so to me those places were the antithesis of politics because they were far away from all of the social to me. But that really connects back to this sense that I was talking about, where wilderness is something over there that is set aside from people.
And there is also, however, a long history of social activism, particularly within marginalized communities that understand that the environment isn’t just what’s in the national parks or wilderness areas, it’s everywhere.
It’s our backyards, it’s our streets, it’s our agricultural lands, it’s our homes and, what’s more, they, those communities, come to activism because ecological crises and the climate crisis are fundamentally a social justice issue, and those who will be, and who are currently being, most affected by the impacts of climate, of climate crisis, are those who are also most harmed by capitalism and colonialism.
You know, it’s black people, indigenous people, other people of color, poor people, queer people, on and on and on, and those folks who are more likely to have dumps and factories situated in their communities, to have air quality issues, to not have enough trees to provide shade and hot summers, mostly because rich people had the the resources to say we don’t want that dump or hey, we’re going to plant a bunch of trees, and so so those activists have long known that the climate crisis is a social justice issue, and they have long understood that the climate crisis is driven by capitalism and colonialism.
You know, those capitalism and colonialism are the things that tell us that that earth exists to be used, to be extracted from. The same is true for people. It’s it’s ethos of domination, of perpetual growth, just as long as some people get rich. So you know that the environmental justice movement really comes out of those communities, and they recognize that environmental activism fundamentally has to be anti racist and anti colonialist. And so I’ve been lucky to learn from them and to build on what they already already knew, have known for decades, that you know the climate change, to deal with with the climate crisis, we really have to reconfigure our social systems as well, because these things are inextricably connected.
0:10:22 – Kyla
Absolutely. I think what came to mind when you said something earlier about Flint Michigan and this is even happening in indigenous communities within Canada is not having clean water for years and years. It is a mesh in that key example. I think a lot of communities in Canada can resonate with that as well, in terms of being separate from nature. Nature is separate from yourself. You live in these lovely homes in Vancouver, even though you can see the mountains, you can see the trees, but you get to go and have air conditioning and have these luxurious homes. Then also, nature is seen as a luxury that you go to to decompress or relax or get exercise, but it’s not necessarily seen as a necessity and you are removed from it.
0:11:11 – Liz
Yeah, we don’t see how connected our lived environment is to nature. I live in Los Angeles now and huge amounts of the city are built out of redwoods which used to be all over California. Now I think it’s like 5% of what they were. I don’t have that number in front of me so it might be wrong, but it is a very small percentage of what those trees used to be. We don’t think about where our homes come from and what has been lost because of that, or where our water comes from or where our food comes from. We just don’t think about all of the people and the land that are involved in creating these structures that we think of as non-nature.
0:11:57 – Anna
Until there’s a crisis, a heat dome, a flood, a wildfire. I think that one of the really important things that you’re pointing us to is that A we’re all interconnected and it comes from this system of extraction of capitalism, of colonialism. You’re really doing a really thorough job of situating the environmental crisis, or the climate crisis, and various social crises as really wetted together. I think that’s really really important Now, as we imagine our way forward, combating this. Extending from this, I’m wondering if you can talk a little bit about how, specifically, infusing queerness into sustainability and in educational spaces can help us to reimagine a way forward that’s more just, that’s infused with possibility as you’ve talked about before and ultimately, is quite regenerative.
0:12:58 – Liz
Yeah, to me, my favorite thing about being queer and about queerness is the possibilities it opens up. To me, queerness is really all about creating possibilities in the face of a dominant, oppressive culture. Queerness opened a door for me. If, as a kid not necessarily explicitly, but the messages that I was getting ever I was okay, I was going to grow up, I was going to get married, have a husband, have some kids, do whatever the 2.5 children’s statistically typical thing is, and then get a 401K and all those things. I have some of those things, but I don’t have others. As it became increasingly clear to me that that was not necessarily going to be my path wasn’t going to marry a dude, what else becomes possible? How else might my conception of family look like? Maybe I can consider my friend’s family as well, because they are just as meaningful to me and we hold each other up just as much as my blood family does. What can my community look like? How can I build relationships and strong community within a space where the dominant culture isn’t necessarily watching out for us and our government isn’t watching out for us? Generations of queer people have come before me building these really strong, innovative community ties.
I think that if we start from that place of wait, what if everything we’ve been told is not necessarily true, or everything we’ve been told is at least coming from this place of white supremacy, colonialism, so on? What is a more expansive view Like what else could we see there and how could we make it so that it works for more people? You know, if we take you know, in the US, for example, healthcare is tied to your work and who you’re married to what if we didn’t do that? What if we actually understood that it makes sense and is better for all of us if we’re all allowed to be healthy and to access care? You know things like that. There’s just, there’s so much possibilities that open up when you start saying, actually, I don’t wanna do it the way that it’s always been done.
0:15:15 – Kyla
No, no, and thank you for saying that, everything that you’re just saying right now. And when I read it in the book, it rang so true to me because, as someone who also identifies as queer, like I, was like, yes, if one of things are not always what they seem, and then you go down this rabbit hole of like, well, if I exist in this space and this way of whom I’m attracted to or how I wanna identify, then like, what else is true, what else can be possible? And then you start analyzing all the systems. And no, I love how you said this expansiveness, because and I think that’s what queerness offers is this space to be expansive and creative. And again, again, things are not always what they seem. And yeah, it’s really beautiful to think of it in this inextricable way if we interweave queerness into sustainability, because so much of the work that Ann and I have been doing is like we can’t do things the same way, like we need to use creative means to do so, and this is really ringing true absolutely.
0:16:09 – Liz
Yeah, and there’s just. There’s so much creativity inherent in queerness and I feel like queer folks in the queer community. There’s so much creativity both in terms of what we think of as art, but also just like in ways of being and ways of existing in community with one another.
0:16:27 – Kyla
Yeah, I mean everything you just said as well. It kind of answered the next question I was gonna ask, but I mean just a bit more pointed. Can you expand on how your question of heteronormativity, like growing up watching Disney movies and you mentioned Marvel movies a lot in your book led you to question the ways in which we treat our planet and other than human entities?
0:16:46 – Liz
Yeah, I always kind of crack up when I’m trying to describe unsettling to people because I’m like you know it’s this book about climate crisis and white supremacy and colonialism and these really heavy concepts and also I talked about the Lion King. But I think that it’s really important. You know, I talk about several Disney movies in the book. I talk about the Lion King, I talk about the Little Mermaid, I talk about Book of Honest. I was obsessed with those movies as a kid Especially. I think I wore out the Lion King tape, the VHS, and they were my favorite. You know, those were my favorites because they had that like that clucky hero or heroine who felt different from everyone else and a connection to place and nature, like you know, basically the perfect characters for a queer, nerdy, outdoorsy kid to relate to. But then when I was writing Unsettling I rewatched them all.
I do not recommend that, especially Book of Honest. You know, like Book of Honest but it lightly valorizes whiteness in European settlers and like the story of an indigenous girl wanting to essentially be white, which is very not okay. The Lion King takes everything that is like different, makes it stupid. You know, scar is very gay, coded as a villain. The hyenas are just total idiots and moochers. You know like. There’s also the whole fact that the Lion King is a movie that pretends Africa as a place that has no people. And then there’s a little mermaid which is like the story of a young woman, just like giving up her voice literally for a guy.
But those are the stories of heterosexuality and nature that I was sold as a kid, so it was really important for me to go back to them and to see what stories those were and what I was being told by the general culture.
You know how I was supposed to interpret the world, and so I wanted to know what those stories were. And then, at the same time, when I was writing Unsettling, I wanted to know how my queer community was going to be impacted by the climate crisis, that’s, you know, that’s sort of the root of where Unsettling was born. But I didn’t just want a story of, frankly, how screwed we are. I wanted to know how queerness could help us find our way out, and so the queerness had primed me to be ready to rethink everything, and so having these really explicit examples of the narrative that I’ve been given helped me see ways to flip them to say, okay, here’s what could be new, here’s how I could use queerness to think of okay, what would a clear Lion King look like? Or what would a clear society look like? And that really helped me start to think through how to use queerness as that possibility of that opening up.
0:19:40 – Kyla
I think what also comes to mind with that is in this extensiveness, and this phrase keeps coming in my head over and over again is just like whatever we’re doing isn’t working, so why don’t we try something else? Exactly Right, yeah, and I think that’s like and queerness could be that thing, Like just this. Let’s just flip it on its head and try that out, maybe.
0:20:01 – Liz
Yeah, I mean clearly what we are doing is not working and clearly billions of dollars have been spent trying to make individual consumers feel like it’s their fault, like you just need to turn off your electricity for five more minutes a day or use as much less water and the climate crisis will be fixed, and obviously that is not true. Those are stories that oil and gas companies have spent a whole lot of money making us think is true. And what if we actually recalibrated our society? You know what if we said, hey, the structures of consumption and capitalism, they’re not working for us, so let’s try something else?
0:20:52 – Anna
And I really like that you’re pointing to these kind of, I guess, industries for lack of a better word but like the creative industries that really manufacture the myths and the narratives that we consume as children and it really shapes our world, as you talked about so beautifully. So, as we’re imagining this queer future, are there any examples right now that you can think of that, do this really successfully, or starting to kind of make progress toward that?
0:21:25 – Liz
Yeah, so I think there are a lot of indigenous writers who are doing really a wonderful job of talking about different ways of having relationship, different ways of existing with the land. I think of Joshua Whitehead, for example, who’s making love with the land. It’s just like an amazing book. And I think there is a need, though, for more stories that explicitly grapple with climate futures that aren’t just dystopia. I think of Amitav Ghosh’s book where he talks about the great derangement, where he talks about the climate crisis as a crisis. The imagination Because the time he was writing, a lot of the climate fiction that was coming up was really that dystopian riddles Everything is on fire and we’re all going to die kinds of stories, and I think there are a lot of stories that are diverging from that path now, and I’m really glad to see it, because we need new stories about the climate crisis and about climate change that show new futures and new possibilities, because if we don’t see ourselves reflected in stories, it’s really hard for us to actually imagine those possibilities.
Storytellers and stories are our culture builders, so if we get those stories, I think that’s going to do a whole lot for us.
0:22:51 – Anna
I absolutely agree. Every two years there’s a global theater festival called the Climate Change Theater Action, and some of the plays that get submitted are very dystopic, very bleak, but some are really, really hopeful. And so I think I absolutely agree with you in terms of the need to be able to see ourselves in stories that are positive, that are queer, that are us actually coming together and changing the systems that we all feel are not serving us, and yet we are still kind of anchored by them. So I just absolutely agree and thank you very much for sharing resources which will distribute widely.
0:23:35 – Liz
Yeah, and it’s a question that I almost struggled a little bit with, because part of myself really shies away from reading fiction that grapples with the climate crisis, because so much of it is that kind of dystopian and it just burns me out. I got burnt out when I was researching this book and there’s that balance between that complete grief and oh my God, what is going to happen to us and the joy of reading a story, and I struggled to find it with climate fiction. So I think there is a lot that has come out recently that I’m excited to dive into, because I think we are getting these new stories and I’m so happy to see it.
0:24:23 – Kyla
I can see how you would get burnt out from it, because you’re going to read this fiction that tells you the world is going to end and burn up and such, but then you read the news and the reality of what’s happening and then you’re just bombarding on.
All aspects of this is what’s happening. And, yeah, I’ve studied environmental psychology and that is a big thing, where people just feel like the problem is so daunting and that you do, you shut down, you burn out, you shut down and you think, well, screw it, what can I do? And people throw their hands up and they shut down. And it’s hard, because it’s hard to vacillate between being present and aware of the goings on and knowing you need to be informed, and knowing that you need to be aware of the problem but then having to situationally remove yourself when needed at times. But then that’s also a luxury for some people, because some people don’t have the option to remove themselves from the dystopia that probably exists in the world as well. And so, yeah, it’s difficult, very difficult, but I’m glad to hear that there’s more hopeful books that are coming out in that way, or resources.
0:25:35 – Liz
Yeah, and knowing that really resonates with me where I think it’s really important for us to remember that, a there’s a lot of good being done in terms of making a more livable world and, b we are not individually actually responsible. I mean, we are responsible as human beings to each other, but I for you, you’re not going to solve the climate crisis and you, being super hyper informed, is not going to solve it. So we have to sort of calibrate and find a way to say like, yes, I want to be engaged with my community, I want to be telling stories about the climate crisis and I want to be sharing this information with other people, but also I need to find joy in my life and I need to find resilience and connection, and that’s a way easier stuff than that.
0:26:34 – Anna
And because you work as a science communicator and so you actually are, you are one of these people creating new kind of visions for the future, or at least communicating in really powerful ways what’s happening. And so I’m wondering if you can just maybe like talk a little bit about that, how you, in your own processes of using storytelling and creative writing in science communication, like, do you, how do you find that balance or foster that kind of perspective?
0:27:02 – Liz
I find that it is best if I can balance the like big picture. Here’s where we’re going, with just really cool nature stuff, which is why I describe myself, as you know, an essayist, a storyteller and a nature nerd, because there are there are parts in unsettling where I’m talking about the impact of whaling on biodiversity in the ocean and, at the same time, there are parts in unsettling where I’m talking about the city that grows up on the corpse of a whale at the bottom of the ocean, because I think it’s really cool and I think it’s, you know, it’s really amazing. I’m talking on Zoom and I have a whale fall picture behind me. It’s just, it’s a skeleton of, I think it’s a gray whale on the sea floor and it’s covered in this yellow fuzz and those are the worm that burrow that have evolved to burrow into whale bones and just dissolve the lipids, and I just think that is so cool, both on the biological level and on the metaphorical level of having something that has evolved to break down something that to me just looks like a big stone, you know, but they’re, they’re literally eating it and they are that is driving an entire ecosystem in the ocean, and so for me, it’s about finding that balance between okay, yes, this is part of a system that is really in a bad way in some ways.
You know we are, it is, it is in crisis, but also within that crisis, there are these moments of just brilliance, and those brilliance, if we can hold on to those, those are the things that inspire me and want to make me keep going, and I’m hoping that they will also inspire someone else. If someone else reads something that I’ve written about how important Whale Poop is which is the introduction of the book is all about how Whale Poop drives entire ecosystems maybe they’ll start caring a little more about how the ocean works and maybe they’ll get more connected. And so, yeah, that’s really where I start with these places that just make me completely nerd out.
0:29:19 – Kyla
I love that so much. I think it’s so true as well, and I think that’s such a good way of grappling with the vastness of the problems that are going on, because there’s probably like 1,000 millions of interconnected systems and subsystems and subsystems. So it’s almost like a call to if everyone just like picked an aspect or picked something whether you want to look at trees or like the mites in the trees, or you want to look at yeah, whale Poop, or you want to look at ice and how the Arctic system is worth, or whatever if we like break it down and almost like chunk it, and if everyone does a little bit, then that will eventually lead to changes. That’s kind of how I perceive it.
0:30:01 – Liz
Yeah, especially if the people who are looking at the mites on whales are talking to the people who are looking at trees. There’s the specialization I think is really important and the let’s make sure you know something really well in a way that you can make a little bit of a difference here, but then also make sure you’re talking to the people who are making a difference elsewhere, because you may have ideas that can help each other, and also your whale and your tree may be more connected than you realize Exactly. Yeah, so it’s how you make that happen is a whole other question that I will leave to someone else.
0:30:37 – Kyla
But making sure that we’re functioning on these different levels, yeah, I know, yeah, and then I also do a lot of work on inter-interdisciplinary and the necessity of that, and not even just within, like biology or the sciences, but the interconnectedness of, like the arts or even like economics or something like that, and like working in such a way where everyone can feed into one another and not just exiling off ideas or systems. Right, because everything is, especially in this global community that we’re in, like everything is interconnected and inextricable, absolutely. Last question is in the work that you do, what gives you hope?
0:31:17 – Liz
Yeah. So hope is a tricky word for me. I think about hope sometimes. For me gets bogged down in hoping someone else will take care of it, which is not where I want to be, although it’s an easy place to hang out in and I think about.
There’s this really, really amazing quote that I come back to all the time from Jose Esteban Munoz in it’s been cruising Utopia and he writes that queerness is not yet here.
Queerness is an ideality, but another way, we are not yet queer.
We may never touch queerness, but we can feel it as the warm illumination of a horizon imbued with potentiality.
And so when people ask me about hope, I always really come back to the sense of potentiality and what could be and what is possible.
There’s like a yearning and a grasping for inherent to it and a jumping in and trying to make things clear, trying to touch queerness rather than just sort of a sit around and wait and just decide that we’re here and this is where we’re always going to be.
So I look really to the potentiality rather than to the hope or to the curiosity and the creativity, and so, with that in mind, I’m excited about the work that’s being done at local levels, the work that communities are doing, whether it’s to make cities more bike friendly or to stop oil terminals. I’m really excited about what I’m seeing, about the increasing recognition of and appreciation for, indigenous sovereignty and indigenous knowledge, especially where I’m working in science these days, and I was so excited and I see so much potentiality in younger generations. I think, to some degree, like we older folks need to just kind of give them the tools and get out of their way, and I’m really excited about that. And so I think there’s just there’s a lot of potential right now and my hope is that I continue finding ways to help fuel it and to help support it.
0:33:23 – Anna
That’s a brilliant way to end today. Liz, thank you so much for your wisdom and your generosity and your humor and the work that you did in unsettling.
0:33:33 – Liz
Thank you so much for having me. This was such a good time.
0:33:36 – Anna
You can find our guests’ contact information and any resources they mentioned in the show notes for the episode. If you want to stay connected with us or learn more about our work, visit my website, annagriffith.ca. There you’ll find additional resources and ways to contact us directly. We would love to hear from you, so if you have any feedback, suggestions or topics you’d like us to explore in future episodes, don’t hesitate to reach out. The Creative Praxis podcast is produced by me, Anna Griffith with support from Kyla Mitchell-Marquis. Sound editing is done by Brendon George, with music from Wattaboy on Pixabay.
Transcribed by https://podium.page